The official PRD has a section on Afflictions with a subsection specifically about Poison. After combing the message boards, there's a fair amount of debate along with several interpretations/suggestions on how they should work:
- The closest official word is in the Poisons Thread as that's the only one with any comments from Bulmahn (the lead designer). But toward the end he seems to reconsider his stance a bit but never posts back any revisions to his initial view.
- FarmerBob has a good post in this thread arguing the point to track the poison on the initiative count where it was contracted as opposed to the player's initiative count. For simplicity the RAW has it tracked at the player's turn and Bulmahn also has a post in the previous thread as to why that's the case.
- FarmerBob posts another pretty detailed example of how he runs poisons here, though this interpretation makes them considerably weaker than the word from Bulmahn in the first thread. Basically, his interpretation makes a character fail 2 saves before they end up taking any of the effect of the poison. If we think poison is too powerful, this is one way to weaken it a bit.
- Nethys has a post in this thread that also has an interesting variant interpretation compared to the RAW (though her example of the RAW is wrong, from the other threads it's pretty clear the Initial Round of her example should all be DC 14 saves). Her version ends up in a lot fewer rolls and less damage in the first round but the stacking of multiple hits has potentially greater overall effect due to the increased DC.
Okay, I've read up on this a bit. Damn is it convoluted. I'm reminded of your first encounter with rats and filth fever in the 4e game. Didn't they just kick your ass, which then prompted research?
ReplyDeleteBrett, I'd like to know what you think is the best interpretation. Its clear to me that you and I will need to talk it over.
I'm inclined to go with FarmerBob and track poison on the initiative count it was dealt rather than the character's turn. I don't think his example covered multiple doses in one round though, like when you are surrounded by spiders.
If you are bit by two spiders at once fail to save against the base DC of the first bite you immediately take the effects of the poison. The second bite would have the base DC +2 right? No effect if you save, but if a poison is cured by one save, does that mean you are then cured of the poison from the first bite if it's cure condition is one save rather than two consecutive saves? It's pretty clear to me in the RAW that you suffer the effect any time you fail a save, so there is the potential to take A LOT of damage in one round if you fail saves from multiple attacks.
I prefer tracking from the point of contraction as well, even though it may be a bit more work at the table I think it's more even. The only time it may be problematic is if you have multiple creatures at different initiative counts using the same stacking poison, but that's an edge case and I think you could still track from the initial point of contracting the first dose. The only remaining question is whether this save is done at the start or end of that initiative count. I'm leaning toward the end, but I can see potential problems either way.
ReplyDeleteGoing by Bulmahn in the first thread I linked above, both saves in your example would be against the normal DC of the poison to determine if you've contracted it. And yes, any failures would mean you take the effect. The stacking doesn't come into play until you've actual contracted a dose of poison. So here's all the permutations by RAW as I understand:
Player gets hit twice in the same round by DC 13 poison, 1d2 Dex dmg (for simplicity I'm ignoring duration, but it stacks just like the DC, so an increased DC also means in increased duration):
-Saves on both then takes no damage and nothing else occurs.
-Saves on one DC 13 but fails the other at DC 13 (order doesn't matter). Player takes 1d2 Dex dmg. Then on the next round he has to make another DC 13 save. Upon success the poison is purged from his system and he takes no more damage from it, upon failure he takes another 1d2 dmg and repeats next round.
-Fails both saves at DC 13, takes 2d2 Dex dmg immediately. On the next round he makes one DC 15 save, upon success the poison is purged from his system. Upon failure he takes another 1d2 Dex dmg and repeats the process next round until he saves or the duration expires.
Now say in the last scenario he is hit again in the second round. He would make another DC 13 save. Upon failure he would take another 1d2 dmg immediately and the save on the following round would increase to DC 17. Upon success, he just doesn't contract an additional dose but still has to deal with the two doses he took the first round at DC 15.
Yes, the official RAW can deal a lot of damage in one round if you fail the first (lower) saves. That's why I kinda liked Nethys' idea since it basically exchanges multiple low DC saves for fewer higher DC saves. But then again he/she says the RAW is probably the way to go. I'm still a little bit on the fence as to what overall interpretation I think is 'best' but I suppose we could start with RAW and see how it plays out with the minor tweak of tracking on a different initiative count.
Just one additional note about ability damage. From RAW:"For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
ReplyDeleteSo the penalty is calculated without regard for your actual ability score. Whether it's a 12 or a 13, with one point of ability damage your ability modifier would still be +1. It isn't until you take 2 points of ability damage that it drops to +0.
The only time your ability score comes into play is the following sentence: "If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score."